---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: pk sasiddharan <pksasidharan97@rediffmail.com>
Date: Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:13 PM
Subject: spiritual dissent
To: padmajav@hotmail.com, padmakumarps@gmail.com, padmini02@vsnl.net, palashbiswaskl@gmail.com, pallabi_c@hotmail.com, pandealka@gmail.com, panditanu@yahoo.com, pankaj@tandfindia.co, pankaj_mangal@yahoo.com, pankyarul@yahoo.co.in, panoordada@rediffmail.com, panwarakesh@gmail.com, Parameswaran.Kishore@gov.im, paranoid_iitd@yahoo.co.in, parekh@md3.vsnl.net.in, parimala_bharathy@yahoo.co.in, parlan.fritz@experiencefestival.com, parthasarathy24@hotmail.com, paru@md3.vsnl.net.in, parvathikp@rediffmail.com, parvathy_saju@hotmail.com, parvathy_saju@gamil.com, parvathysaju@gamil.com, pasquo@chariot.net.au, passionsblomma@hotmail.com, pasupathi01@yahoo.com, patelchandrika@hotmail.com, paul.b@petltd.com, Paul.Lifton@ndsu.edu, paul.lifton@ndsu.edu, paul@bodhimusic.com, paulamids@rediffmail.com, paulsacharia@rediffmail.com
Further comments and reflections on spiritual dissent.
[For the Contexual details: spiritualdissent.blogspot.com]
Dissenter Commentary Mails,
Alexander Gruber
Thank you for this interesting essay. I think a dissenter is someone derivating from and being in opposition to the mainstream. And someone having a derivating opinion in the mainstream is just critizising the mainstream or is critical within the mainstream. A dissenter is in turn always critical of the mainstream, but even more he is opposing, protesting against it. What the mainstream is, is just relative to about which society or institution is the talk of. I guess the topic should be treated much as exposition of the terms. This should be separated from the topic of spirituality in especial. First the terms, the sociological terms: dissenter, critizist, protestant and the like need to be clarified, befor turning to spirituality at all. I would seperate the two topics (of these terms and spirituality).
To put it together, I am a dissenter in my opinion on spirituality, because my spirituality is that of dreams, far off from the mainstream of either religious (I mean traditional religious) spirituality or from spirituality as contemplation. OK truth playes a role in my spirituality too, well this is the single point, where my spirituality meets the mainstream. I hope this explanation is helpful.
Well this is an issue, which can make the brain neurons smoke.
Have a nice day and dream something fine - Alex
Just one more idea. I wrote an essay short time ago, with the title (translated): "Thoughts of a Dissenter" and I wanted to say I am opposing the mainstream in Germany. But when I say that the essay you sent to me is just dealing with a question of minor importance, I am critcal in this debate of ours (this mainstream). But I am no dissenter in this debate, because I enjoyed to think about it and I have no problems with the rest of the discours. And I am critical on feminism, but not a dissenter to feminism, as I am afiliate to it. This is how I try to clarify my thought to you.
Thank you - nice day and happy dreams - Alex
Now to turn to the social sphere of spiritual traditions. In some traditions a criticist is allways a dissenter, because they do not allow for critizism at all within their mainstream. Many ideologies are like this.
Then another sociological term is this of a sect. A sect according to Karl Marx is an organization, defining itself by the differences to the working class, not emphaszising what they have in common with the working class. And a French Marxist explained to me, a sect is an organization, which has really lost the contact to the working class.
To apply it to my own convictions, I don't want my dreams culture to be a sect. I am emphazising, what I have in common political with the interests of the working class, but I add my dreams culture spirituality as an advancement.
The difference between being a dissenter and a critizist is sometimes floating, Just depending on the reception of an opinion.
And what is with an anti-X, for example an antiracist (as I am for example). Is an anti-racist a dissenter to racism? Yes I would say so, even as it seems a little weak an ex-pression. And anti-racist is not only dissenting with the mainstream of racism, but he is opposing racism at all. There is no word for this really. It is missing in sociology. Just to express being an anti-X by some word.
Ok nice issue this exposition. I think the author of the essay, you sent to me is just entangled in these conceptual problems, carrying them out on the back of the topic of spirituality, spinning arround in intellectual circles arround these difficulties.
Have a nice day and dream something fine - Alex
So we have to define and distinguish (clare et distincte as Descartes demands) the related terms in the same field: critizist, dissenter, sceptizist,
outsider, anti-x, sectarian. All belonging to one sociological field. This is the first step.
And then the second step is to apply these definitions to spirituality.
This is a structualist approach (scientific structuralism), because I first define the terms structually and this means independent of any application (using applications only as examples to illustrate the theory) and then I look for the intended modells concerning spirituality.
Sorry it is all a lttle scattered over my mails. I am just sitting here in the night thinking and drinking coffee and smoking a cigarett and making jokes with our computer specialist. Somone threw a false coin in our beer atomaton and we are making jokes on it.
I have explained him the essay you sent to me and my answers and at the same time going on to think.
Have a nice day - Alex
I have forgotten the term non-conformist. A non-conformist is no dissenter, but someone, who has essantially the same ideology as the mainstream, but he is not conform - that is not aggreeing with the mainstream. Non-conformism is often the result of critizism. But as critizism is not necessary a continual state of opposition, non-conformism is permanent. Have a nice day - if you like I will copy you my little writings and statements together to one essay for you and for the author - Alex
In the third step you can proove your theory fruitful by connecting it to historical questions and taking up a wider view as only the terms. You can connect it to the question of violence of religions and hiostorical struggles between ideologies and to class struggle. This is a good scientific layout for the work dealing with the topic of the essay. This includes to introduce the term dissident. A dissident is someone persecuted by some ideology or religion or other belive for either his critizism or dissence or anti-x position whatsoever. Thus the view is widened from the sociological fild of concepts for intellectual oppositin to that of manifest social behaviour on intellectual opposition.
I hope you are not angry because of this rag rug (patchwork) I sent you. Just my ideas are comming one by one.
Nice day - Alex
Habermas and secularism...Is secularism totally outdated in Western europe?
.....I have forgotten the term non-conformist. A non-conformist is no dissenter, but someone, who has essantially the same ideology as the mainstream, but he is not conform - that is not aggreeing with the mainstream. Non-conformism is often the result of critizism. But as critizism is not necessary a continual state of opposition, non-conformism is permanent. Have a nice day - if you like I will copy you my little writings and statements together to one essay for you and for the author - Alex
- Show quoted text -
DISSIDENT STREAMS IN SPIRITUALITY
Sharing of workshop experience:
[workshop was held on 28-29 April 2010]
(spiritualdissent.blogspot.com)
From the Co-ordinator:
Dear all,
We appreciate your attentive and inspiring presence in the workshop. The cordial and spirited engagement with the questions on the nature and various dimensions of spiritual dissent has enabled the participants to get a workable clarity. We are glad to see that the process of collective exploration has revealed much further the complexity and diversity of the phenomenon of dissident spirituality. We hope it would generate more interactions and understanding, if the workshop has succeeded in inspiring reflections of any kind. Indeed it would be a great reward for us if you could be critical about the failures and lacunas of deliberations. We also look forward to have a sustained interaction on the ideas transpired so far.
With much thanks and regards.
----------------------------------
1. Dr. Ananta Kamar Giri:
It was enriching being together, and it was a deeply learning experience. As it brought in an unexpected and spontaneous way kindred many souls open to be together and learn a little bit.
----------------------------
2.Dr. Partha Sarathy Mondel:
In this age of organized academic and the consequent seminars and conferences, it is almost become impossible to get in touch with people. In this sense the workshop was outstanding success. It has enabled the participants to contemplate and then respond so that each participant was actually able to touch the core of the other. Therefore, the next workshop should be a week-long affair where the possibility of touching each other gets amplified several times more. The only thing is, in order to be limited to the broad theme of the workshop, let there be fewer people (20-25) rather than narrower explorations. Another suggestion is that there can be an intensive opportunity for the participants to get in touch with several varieties of dissident spiritualities in practice. This would require fieldwork for few days, and a class-room contemplation session for a couple of days. Perhaps, the selection of the sites of the dissident spiritualities can be decided in consultation with the participants. What is being proposed in an in-situ workshop. The sites of dissident spirituality can be selected not only from religious situations but also from social and political contexts. If in a sense spirituality is recognized through inspiration, then the workshop can also help the participant to get in touch with examples of inspiration in the social and political field.
------------------------
3. Fr. Dr. K. J. Gasper:
Innovative as well as developing themes and narrations were highlighted in the workshop. The focus on multiplicity was obvious in discussions. Various approaches on the notion of dissident spirituality were exposed. The attempts were there to disrupt the very monolithic conception of the notion of spirituality were the chief concern of the workshop. Though the highlight of it was on dissident streams of spirituality, as a whole it failed to conceive the main stream spirituality itself as dissident in nature. There were no major concerns in this issue in the workshop. I hope this aspect would be taken care of in the oncoming discussions related to this workshop.
------------------------------------
4.Dr. V. Dinesan:
The workshop was an intellectually stimulating experience. The theoretical and empirical engagement with the concept of dissident provided new ways to think on ruptures/discontinuities on the one hand and social (spiritual is social for me) imagination, on the other. The discussion on event and stream re-invoked my interest in redefining event/situation analysis that Manchester School of Anthropologist had originally developed. I am looking forward for a follow-up workshop with further intensity.
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5. Dr. Jenny Reppai:
The topic of the workshop 'dissident streams in spirituality' itself encompases a wide range of issues in its purview. After the detailed deliberations undertaken during the two days, it has given 1. more than enough food for thought, 2. though it was an informal one, each one of the participants took it in a serious manner and deliberated upon the subject at great length, 3. it has not only inspired but also motivated everyone due to its thought provoking approach. one is bout to recall Dr. Johnson's words 'hetrogenious ideas yoked together'.
------------------
6. Dr. Giorgio De Martino:
The workshop at Sankaracharya University has been a surprise, to me. A discovery, I would say, many word and worlds crossing together, ideas, way of thinking, probably the next time, as suggested, by Partha Sarathy. some more time to share doubts, ideas, suggestions...creativity, may be inventing some field-work? A lot of information, I have to think about, having a little more time to calm the mind after so many suggestions, could improve the discussions? I appreciate the performance, a lot, a living body speaking dissenting about how much we can be obliged to embody politics, sometimes without being able to react? But at last we have sung and also danced. You know: when I stopped to go at the university, about 1984, in Milan, one of the reasons was that I felt the place without life, almost. And I didn't know that in that desert I was lucky: a nice psychology professor, Fulvio Scaparro, probably seeing my passion for knowledge, asked me to prepare some material for his lessons, besides this, my family, looked at me as a lazy student, as I was studying (with good results even if not so fast...), dancing, photographing, writing articles, working with a famous ballet editor etc., but no real success and money. At the University, in Milan, I was sad, when dancing, I was alive: I danced, first. The choice had an high cost, but if, after all this years, I have been so lucky to meet you, in the far India, it was not so a bad choice...
The workshop evoked me a lot of memories (I am 53, but being from a journalist's family, I was swimming inside information and mass media system from early childhood) of an almost disappeared past where people (the 60s and 70s) was not as cyber-lost-souls in the Internet (a very good idea, the problem is the bad way could be used...like TV), but living flesh interacting with life. In fact, the suggestion about more time to interact, may be with some living experience, the time to rethink about official and personal communication, letting ideas spread and sprout...
I am discovering India, the real one, as the imaginary India, from Italy and/or France has been an icon for a long time. Exemple: trying to have look at the Theyyam has been amazing, as it helped me to see the "Incredible India!" suggested by advertising newspapers (the supermarket society don't need deep reflections, it needs only job-and-buy: don't think buybuybuy and be happy, no other problems!..... Bye-bye! Brain! Oh, yes, I know that in the future the parents will buy the logic software for the good education of their sons, then the microchip we'll be injected in the blood through nano-technologies...oh, yes, you'll be able - the poor people - to buy the microchip with credit or leasing, yes...don't worry) ...selling the postcard of the ancient "ritual", forgetting the impulsion that made it alive. Not only tribal traditions are disappearing, but a lot of knowledge, with a lot of tricks made by villain, as suggested the 12 of April, in Paris, during a conference about "the perverted effects" of the politics of the list about "disappearing heritage" of humanity (UNESCO & Co.). I have the feeling that, during the workshop, we were "helping-and-saving" something important,may be, first, ourselves? Was it a workshop, also, on ..."connecting souls"?
Also: getting in touch with the Kalarippayat in Kannur and travelling with Laura to see Gurukkals, was amazing for my understanding of some local body-mind movements....Being at the workshop in Kalady has been an opening-mind experience and a meeting with thinking people that has not forgotten the body and the forest, I believe.
Thanks and new suggestions and ideas after my travel to Europe...
PS: I am not so joking when describing the science-fiction situation of the children with the microchip pushed into the nose and interacting with the brain, as I will send you some material, the next future!
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7. Dr. Maya S:
Though I could particiapte only in the last session of the workshop (unfortunately), I found it thought provoking. I find my usage of 'thought-provoking' itself as contradicting while talking about spirituality.! It is amazing to think about the role of thought(contemplation and provokation) in understanding the dissident spirituality streams.Spirituality is nowadays used in different ways, during the social discourse. I think one can be spiritual in many different ways at different points of time and space. Of course, one can be spiritual not only in religious spaces/rituals but in social spaces/activities also. I can see these points are really very well raised in the discussions in the workshop. But I found the women`s experiences as missing in the whole enterprise. That`s why I tried to talk about the topic of women`s spirituality as a response to the wonderful presentation (last one)by the scholar from united states. As she said, It is true that women in India have a long way to go ( even to 'be' (become?)social or spiritual). The disjunction between social and spiritual have been in question under recent feminist theorization too. But the methods of being spiritual still remains a confusing strategy. I dont think women should go back to religion and worship patterns ( though only considering godesses), to become spiritual. I was wondering why some feminists in SFO-USA are very keen about worshipping Durga/Kali etc. to exercise women`s spirituality. May be women in India can take that way to be spiritaul as a protest /strategy. Otherwise they have to satisfy themselves by cooking and cleaning as spiritual experiences! (if they dont,the society in India would consolidate that it is the only spirituality attainment for women.!) They can never dare to announce that they find spirituality in writing/reading/partying/ cheering up etc! And in terms of body too, Indian women have to be conscious about what they are doing. Otherwise the men-folks would make them conscious by their comments.I dont think the women in India can that easily be spiritual through freedom to do yoga,marshal arts,massage or even sex! So women`s spirituality in India would either be in asrams/sanyasam or be strategical in kitchen/bedroom! ( I have heard some women saying this). So that strategical spirituality women hold, is mental. It might not have much to do with body, I think. Because ,body is not free as mind (mind can have unrevealed ex-pressions/postures) for Indian women.
I`m sorry for writing a long note like this after participating only in the last session. But I would like to share this as supportive response to the same last presentation I mentioned above. There were not much women particiaption in the workshop and also I felt myself appropriated even by sitting for a half day and trying to speak out! I couldnt say this much there, because some male-scholars intervened blocking my dialogue with the paper presenter ! this happens in almost every non-feminist seminars, when feminists start speaking !
--------------------
8. Swami. Vinaya Chaitanya:
First of all, I must thank ...for the wonderful hospitality and openness of your home which paved the way for the success of the workshop, by having key persons meet and share ideas even before the actual workshop; of course for your hard work on the net through out the last months; but all of it has resulted in what I'd say was the best of these workshops we have had through the last few years.
The responses and the promptness with which they are coming also speak of how inspiring it has been.
Partha's suggestion of a longer, living-in workshop is very much in my vision of follow-up too. Especially as we saw how productive the non-formal, dinner and after-dinner sessions have been and it is important to have that kind of relaxed time together when a lot of communication and personal bonding happens which is immediately reflected in the enhanced quality of the sessions after the first night's dinner; and that philosophers could sing and dance as well as talk deep philosophy is a very encouraging sign, I really thank all of us for our presence and interest and look forward to deeper exchanges.
----------------
9. Dr. P. Madhu.
The workshop on dissenting streams of spirituality helped me to think on the nature of dissent, consent and their social ex-pressions. Whatsoever could be the amorphous or mystic character of spirituality its social manifestation has consents, dissents and parallels. The more amorphous a field is the less its internal contradictions are discussed. This workshop served as a starting point to capture the politics of spirituality.
The conduct of such a workshop with minimal funding of Rs.50000/- is really laudable. The workshop was unusually blessed with serious participants who were really conversing. However, owing to shortage of time the workshop could not generate any substantial dialogue, yet what is achieved is deserves applauds.
The performance on the first day was quite wonderful. Seriously taken, the play helps one to resist the consents one is otherwise thrown into.
-----------------
10. Dr Ajay Sekher:
It was an open and democratic arena for intimate interaction and co-learning. It is important that we document and publish the papers at least. If shortage of funds prevent us from doing it in print we must do it in net.
----------------------
11. Laura Selvestri:
I arrived in Paris two days ago and I have already been taken by the frenetic rythms of this town. Moreover, it is really cold, what a change from the 35 °C of Kerala!
This notwithstanding, the experience of the workshop is still with me.
I agree with the proposal of a longer meeting and of a practical experience. What frequently happens is that, while talking, one forgets real experience, bodily experience, especially this might happens during intellectual work.
And yes, I think the people that were there, males and females, could be able to engage themselves in a courageous discussion that includes women's experiences, spiritualities and bodies. I know it might be difficult and may be painful, but it is a core issue for spirituality and, for the first time since I was in Kerala, during the workshop I had the impression of being among people that could find the sincerity, respect, self-questioning, and courage to face such issues that are often avoided.
So, thank you again for the invitation that generated such an important experience and occasion for learning.
I also thank all the participants to the workshop for their warm welcome that made me feel comfortable even though I was totally a new-comer.
Special thanks to the ladies that speak aloud. Hearing them was a lesson for me.
--------------------
12.Dr.Ishwar Dost:
It was a wonderful experience. Really such kind of frank, open, receptive and stimulating discussions are rare in now-a-days academic world, which is formal, bureaucratised, ruthless and career-driven. At the same time, this experience of thinking-together was different to obedient, conformist atmosphere of certain divinity-seeking or holy or didactic engagements. This experience suggests that the quest in the form of an honest and open dialogue has its own dimension of spirituality, which not only stimulates thought but also touches the inner core of being. I endorse the view of Dr. Parthsarthi that it may be a longer affair. I was much impressed with the high quality of informal (at the time of dinner, lunch and afterwards) discussions and the enthusiasm of senior and erudite persons to hear and respond patiently arguments, dissents of all participants.
---------------------
13. Dr. Giorgio De Martino:
...hello all: as I suggested during the workshop, there are - in my opinion - so many needs to rethink, share and expand a lot of ideas about "dissident spirituality". As possible I will write more about received suggestions and sharing concepts, at the moment I just can send you an article and a link http://bci.tugraz.at/leeb/ , telling a story connnected with the article you will receive. In october-november 2005 I was talking with a friend, who, now, is about 80 years old, Giovanni degli Antoni http://www.nova-multimedia.it/gda.html . Degli Antoni is considered the dean of the first generation of cybernetiks scientist, in Italy...2500 students have been with him for a Master and/or a PhD.
I told him I was preoccupied, reading the article by Robert Leeb and collegues I am sending you, as the consequences of those researches, could be too much similar to the "1984" orwellian style. I added, also, that it was quite curious to see that, when during the 60s and 70s the so-called "parapsychology" was presented as a quackery, thereafter, as the argument became good-for-business, suddendly a lot of unhortodox researches, became ok. Giovanni looked at me smiling and telling me "you are prehistoric!"... He told me not to be really preoccupied about the researches you can read on the article I am sending you attached, but more about the fact that the half organic/half artificial brain his students - in the laboratory of Crema, near Milan (Italy) - had some difficulties educating the unusual "object". He was, in the meantime, quite worried about the probably dark future of humans.
Read the article...!
---------------
14.Sadique P.K:
thanks for having a such a serious academic debate on a different and often neglected(but genuine)issues from the modern secular normative discourses.[the absence of discussion on dissident streams in Islam tadition was conspicous] a debate on Islamic spiritual movements such as Sanussi movment,Khadiriyya groups and Shiites political spirituality ..etc.] could be taken up the future gatherings. from these streams we get diffrent meanings and explanations for the often misunderstood concepts such as Jihad,kafir and sharia..etc.for example when we go throgh the work of Sheikh Saindheen Maqdumes' Tuhfathul mujahidheen (written in Arabic to urge Muslims to support Samorins of Calicut) it use this terms in a very diffrent meaning .often these sufis and saints tried to go beyond the unitary experince of spirituality and tried to connect the mystic experinces with the earth and time.
From: pk sasiddharan <pksasidharan97@rediffmail.com>
Date: Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:13 PM
Subject: spiritual dissent
To: padmajav@hotmail.com, padmakumarps@gmail.com, padmini02@vsnl.net, palashbiswaskl@gmail.com, pallabi_c@hotmail.com, pandealka@gmail.com, panditanu@yahoo.com, pankaj@tandfindia.co, pankaj_mangal@yahoo.com, pankyarul@yahoo.co.in, panoordada@rediffmail.com, panwarakesh@gmail.com, Parameswaran.Kishore@gov.im, paranoid_iitd@yahoo.co.in, parekh@md3.vsnl.net.in, parimala_bharathy@yahoo.co.in, parlan.fritz@experiencefestival.com, parthasarathy24@hotmail.com, paru@md3.vsnl.net.in, parvathikp@rediffmail.com, parvathy_saju@hotmail.com, parvathy_saju@gamil.com, parvathysaju@gamil.com, pasquo@chariot.net.au, passionsblomma@hotmail.com, pasupathi01@yahoo.com, patelchandrika@hotmail.com, paul.b@petltd.com, Paul.Lifton@ndsu.edu, paul.lifton@ndsu.edu, paul@bodhimusic.com, paulamids@rediffmail.com, paulsacharia@rediffmail.com
Further comments and reflections on spiritual dissent.
[For the Contexual details: spiritualdissent.blogspot.com]
Dissenter Commentary Mails,
Alexander Gruber
Thank you for this interesting essay. I think a dissenter is someone derivating from and being in opposition to the mainstream. And someone having a derivating opinion in the mainstream is just critizising the mainstream or is critical within the mainstream. A dissenter is in turn always critical of the mainstream, but even more he is opposing, protesting against it. What the mainstream is, is just relative to about which society or institution is the talk of. I guess the topic should be treated much as exposition of the terms. This should be separated from the topic of spirituality in especial. First the terms, the sociological terms: dissenter, critizist, protestant and the like need to be clarified, befor turning to spirituality at all. I would seperate the two topics (of these terms and spirituality).
To put it together, I am a dissenter in my opinion on spirituality, because my spirituality is that of dreams, far off from the mainstream of either religious (I mean traditional religious) spirituality or from spirituality as contemplation. OK truth playes a role in my spirituality too, well this is the single point, where my spirituality meets the mainstream. I hope this explanation is helpful.
Well this is an issue, which can make the brain neurons smoke.
Have a nice day and dream something fine - Alex
Just one more idea. I wrote an essay short time ago, with the title (translated): "Thoughts of a Dissenter" and I wanted to say I am opposing the mainstream in Germany. But when I say that the essay you sent to me is just dealing with a question of minor importance, I am critcal in this debate of ours (this mainstream). But I am no dissenter in this debate, because I enjoyed to think about it and I have no problems with the rest of the discours. And I am critical on feminism, but not a dissenter to feminism, as I am afiliate to it. This is how I try to clarify my thought to you.
Thank you - nice day and happy dreams - Alex
Now to turn to the social sphere of spiritual traditions. In some traditions a criticist is allways a dissenter, because they do not allow for critizism at all within their mainstream. Many ideologies are like this.
Then another sociological term is this of a sect. A sect according to Karl Marx is an organization, defining itself by the differences to the working class, not emphaszising what they have in common with the working class. And a French Marxist explained to me, a sect is an organization, which has really lost the contact to the working class.
To apply it to my own convictions, I don't want my dreams culture to be a sect. I am emphazising, what I have in common political with the interests of the working class, but I add my dreams culture spirituality as an advancement.
The difference between being a dissenter and a critizist is sometimes floating, Just depending on the reception of an opinion.
And what is with an anti-X, for example an antiracist (as I am for example). Is an anti-racist a dissenter to racism? Yes I would say so, even as it seems a little weak an ex-pression. And anti-racist is not only dissenting with the mainstream of racism, but he is opposing racism at all. There is no word for this really. It is missing in sociology. Just to express being an anti-X by some word.
Ok nice issue this exposition. I think the author of the essay, you sent to me is just entangled in these conceptual problems, carrying them out on the back of the topic of spirituality, spinning arround in intellectual circles arround these difficulties.
Have a nice day and dream something fine - Alex
So we have to define and distinguish (clare et distincte as Descartes demands) the related terms in the same field: critizist, dissenter, sceptizist,
outsider, anti-x, sectarian. All belonging to one sociological field. This is the first step.
And then the second step is to apply these definitions to spirituality.
This is a structualist approach (scientific structuralism), because I first define the terms structually and this means independent of any application (using applications only as examples to illustrate the theory) and then I look for the intended modells concerning spirituality.
Sorry it is all a lttle scattered over my mails. I am just sitting here in the night thinking and drinking coffee and smoking a cigarett and making jokes with our computer specialist. Somone threw a false coin in our beer atomaton and we are making jokes on it.
I have explained him the essay you sent to me and my answers and at the same time going on to think.
Have a nice day - Alex
I have forgotten the term non-conformist. A non-conformist is no dissenter, but someone, who has essantially the same ideology as the mainstream, but he is not conform - that is not aggreeing with the mainstream. Non-conformism is often the result of critizism. But as critizism is not necessary a continual state of opposition, non-conformism is permanent. Have a nice day - if you like I will copy you my little writings and statements together to one essay for you and for the author - Alex
In the third step you can proove your theory fruitful by connecting it to historical questions and taking up a wider view as only the terms. You can connect it to the question of violence of religions and hiostorical struggles between ideologies and to class struggle. This is a good scientific layout for the work dealing with the topic of the essay. This includes to introduce the term dissident. A dissident is someone persecuted by some ideology or religion or other belive for either his critizism or dissence or anti-x position whatsoever. Thus the view is widened from the sociological fild of concepts for intellectual oppositin to that of manifest social behaviour on intellectual opposition.
I hope you are not angry because of this rag rug (patchwork) I sent you. Just my ideas are comming one by one.
Nice day - Alex
Habermas and secularism...Is secularism totally outdated in Western europe?
.....I have forgotten the term non-conformist. A non-conformist is no dissenter, but someone, who has essantially the same ideology as the mainstream, but he is not conform - that is not aggreeing with the mainstream. Non-conformism is often the result of critizism. But as critizism is not necessary a continual state of opposition, non-conformism is permanent. Have a nice day - if you like I will copy you my little writings and statements together to one essay for you and for the author - Alex
- Show quoted text -
DISSIDENT STREAMS IN SPIRITUALITY
Sharing of workshop experience:
[workshop was held on 28-29 April 2010]
(spiritualdissent.blogspot.com)
From the Co-ordinator:
Dear all,
We appreciate your attentive and inspiring presence in the workshop. The cordial and spirited engagement with the questions on the nature and various dimensions of spiritual dissent has enabled the participants to get a workable clarity. We are glad to see that the process of collective exploration has revealed much further the complexity and diversity of the phenomenon of dissident spirituality. We hope it would generate more interactions and understanding, if the workshop has succeeded in inspiring reflections of any kind. Indeed it would be a great reward for us if you could be critical about the failures and lacunas of deliberations. We also look forward to have a sustained interaction on the ideas transpired so far.
With much thanks and regards.
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1. Dr. Ananta Kamar Giri:
It was enriching being together, and it was a deeply learning experience. As it brought in an unexpected and spontaneous way kindred many souls open to be together and learn a little bit.
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2.Dr. Partha Sarathy Mondel:
In this age of organized academic and the consequent seminars and conferences, it is almost become impossible to get in touch with people. In this sense the workshop was outstanding success. It has enabled the participants to contemplate and then respond so that each participant was actually able to touch the core of the other. Therefore, the next workshop should be a week-long affair where the possibility of touching each other gets amplified several times more. The only thing is, in order to be limited to the broad theme of the workshop, let there be fewer people (20-25) rather than narrower explorations. Another suggestion is that there can be an intensive opportunity for the participants to get in touch with several varieties of dissident spiritualities in practice. This would require fieldwork for few days, and a class-room contemplation session for a couple of days. Perhaps, the selection of the sites of the dissident spiritualities can be decided in consultation with the participants. What is being proposed in an in-situ workshop. The sites of dissident spirituality can be selected not only from religious situations but also from social and political contexts. If in a sense spirituality is recognized through inspiration, then the workshop can also help the participant to get in touch with examples of inspiration in the social and political field.
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3. Fr. Dr. K. J. Gasper:
Innovative as well as developing themes and narrations were highlighted in the workshop. The focus on multiplicity was obvious in discussions. Various approaches on the notion of dissident spirituality were exposed. The attempts were there to disrupt the very monolithic conception of the notion of spirituality were the chief concern of the workshop. Though the highlight of it was on dissident streams of spirituality, as a whole it failed to conceive the main stream spirituality itself as dissident in nature. There were no major concerns in this issue in the workshop. I hope this aspect would be taken care of in the oncoming discussions related to this workshop.
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4.Dr. V. Dinesan:
The workshop was an intellectually stimulating experience. The theoretical and empirical engagement with the concept of dissident provided new ways to think on ruptures/discontinuities on the one hand and social (spiritual is social for me) imagination, on the other. The discussion on event and stream re-invoked my interest in redefining event/situation analysis that Manchester School of Anthropologist had originally developed. I am looking forward for a follow-up workshop with further intensity.
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5. Dr. Jenny Reppai:
The topic of the workshop 'dissident streams in spirituality' itself encompases a wide range of issues in its purview. After the detailed deliberations undertaken during the two days, it has given 1. more than enough food for thought, 2. though it was an informal one, each one of the participants took it in a serious manner and deliberated upon the subject at great length, 3. it has not only inspired but also motivated everyone due to its thought provoking approach. one is bout to recall Dr. Johnson's words 'hetrogenious ideas yoked together'.
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6. Dr. Giorgio De Martino:
The workshop at Sankaracharya University has been a surprise, to me. A discovery, I would say, many word and worlds crossing together, ideas, way of thinking, probably the next time, as suggested, by Partha Sarathy. some more time to share doubts, ideas, suggestions...creativity, may be inventing some field-work? A lot of information, I have to think about, having a little more time to calm the mind after so many suggestions, could improve the discussions? I appreciate the performance, a lot, a living body speaking dissenting about how much we can be obliged to embody politics, sometimes without being able to react? But at last we have sung and also danced. You know: when I stopped to go at the university, about 1984, in Milan, one of the reasons was that I felt the place without life, almost. And I didn't know that in that desert I was lucky: a nice psychology professor, Fulvio Scaparro, probably seeing my passion for knowledge, asked me to prepare some material for his lessons, besides this, my family, looked at me as a lazy student, as I was studying (with good results even if not so fast...), dancing, photographing, writing articles, working with a famous ballet editor etc., but no real success and money. At the University, in Milan, I was sad, when dancing, I was alive: I danced, first. The choice had an high cost, but if, after all this years, I have been so lucky to meet you, in the far India, it was not so a bad choice...
The workshop evoked me a lot of memories (I am 53, but being from a journalist's family, I was swimming inside information and mass media system from early childhood) of an almost disappeared past where people (the 60s and 70s) was not as cyber-lost-souls in the Internet (a very good idea, the problem is the bad way could be used...like TV), but living flesh interacting with life. In fact, the suggestion about more time to interact, may be with some living experience, the time to rethink about official and personal communication, letting ideas spread and sprout...
I am discovering India, the real one, as the imaginary India, from Italy and/or France has been an icon for a long time. Exemple: trying to have look at the Theyyam has been amazing, as it helped me to see the "Incredible India!" suggested by advertising newspapers (the supermarket society don't need deep reflections, it needs only job-and-buy: don't think buybuybuy and be happy, no other problems!..... Bye-bye! Brain! Oh, yes, I know that in the future the parents will buy the logic software for the good education of their sons, then the microchip we'll be injected in the blood through nano-technologies...oh, yes, you'll be able - the poor people - to buy the microchip with credit or leasing, yes...don't worry) ...selling the postcard of the ancient "ritual", forgetting the impulsion that made it alive. Not only tribal traditions are disappearing, but a lot of knowledge, with a lot of tricks made by villain, as suggested the 12 of April, in Paris, during a conference about "the perverted effects" of the politics of the list about "disappearing heritage" of humanity (UNESCO & Co.). I have the feeling that, during the workshop, we were "helping-and-saving" something important,may be, first, ourselves? Was it a workshop, also, on ..."connecting souls"?
Also: getting in touch with the Kalarippayat in Kannur and travelling with Laura to see Gurukkals, was amazing for my understanding of some local body-mind movements....Being at the workshop in Kalady has been an opening-mind experience and a meeting with thinking people that has not forgotten the body and the forest, I believe.
Thanks and new suggestions and ideas after my travel to Europe...
PS: I am not so joking when describing the science-fiction situation of the children with the microchip pushed into the nose and interacting with the brain, as I will send you some material, the next future!
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7. Dr. Maya S:
Though I could particiapte only in the last session of the workshop (unfortunately), I found it thought provoking. I find my usage of 'thought-provoking' itself as contradicting while talking about spirituality.! It is amazing to think about the role of thought(contemplation and provokation) in understanding the dissident spirituality streams.Spirituality is nowadays used in different ways, during the social discourse. I think one can be spiritual in many different ways at different points of time and space. Of course, one can be spiritual not only in religious spaces/rituals but in social spaces/activities also. I can see these points are really very well raised in the discussions in the workshop. But I found the women`s experiences as missing in the whole enterprise. That`s why I tried to talk about the topic of women`s spirituality as a response to the wonderful presentation (last one)by the scholar from united states. As she said, It is true that women in India have a long way to go ( even to 'be' (become?)social or spiritual). The disjunction between social and spiritual have been in question under recent feminist theorization too. But the methods of being spiritual still remains a confusing strategy. I dont think women should go back to religion and worship patterns ( though only considering godesses), to become spiritual. I was wondering why some feminists in SFO-USA are very keen about worshipping Durga/Kali etc. to exercise women`s spirituality. May be women in India can take that way to be spiritaul as a protest /strategy. Otherwise they have to satisfy themselves by cooking and cleaning as spiritual experiences! (if they dont,the society in India would consolidate that it is the only spirituality attainment for women.!) They can never dare to announce that they find spirituality in writing/reading/partying/ cheering up etc! And in terms of body too, Indian women have to be conscious about what they are doing. Otherwise the men-folks would make them conscious by their comments.I dont think the women in India can that easily be spiritual through freedom to do yoga,marshal arts,massage or even sex! So women`s spirituality in India would either be in asrams/sanyasam or be strategical in kitchen/bedroom! ( I have heard some women saying this). So that strategical spirituality women hold, is mental. It might not have much to do with body, I think. Because ,body is not free as mind (mind can have unrevealed ex-pressions/postures) for Indian women.
I`m sorry for writing a long note like this after participating only in the last session. But I would like to share this as supportive response to the same last presentation I mentioned above. There were not much women particiaption in the workshop and also I felt myself appropriated even by sitting for a half day and trying to speak out! I couldnt say this much there, because some male-scholars intervened blocking my dialogue with the paper presenter ! this happens in almost every non-feminist seminars, when feminists start speaking !
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8. Swami. Vinaya Chaitanya:
First of all, I must thank ...for the wonderful hospitality and openness of your home which paved the way for the success of the workshop, by having key persons meet and share ideas even before the actual workshop; of course for your hard work on the net through out the last months; but all of it has resulted in what I'd say was the best of these workshops we have had through the last few years.
The responses and the promptness with which they are coming also speak of how inspiring it has been.
Partha's suggestion of a longer, living-in workshop is very much in my vision of follow-up too. Especially as we saw how productive the non-formal, dinner and after-dinner sessions have been and it is important to have that kind of relaxed time together when a lot of communication and personal bonding happens which is immediately reflected in the enhanced quality of the sessions after the first night's dinner; and that philosophers could sing and dance as well as talk deep philosophy is a very encouraging sign, I really thank all of us for our presence and interest and look forward to deeper exchanges.
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9. Dr. P. Madhu.
The workshop on dissenting streams of spirituality helped me to think on the nature of dissent, consent and their social ex-pressions. Whatsoever could be the amorphous or mystic character of spirituality its social manifestation has consents, dissents and parallels. The more amorphous a field is the less its internal contradictions are discussed. This workshop served as a starting point to capture the politics of spirituality.
The conduct of such a workshop with minimal funding of Rs.50000/- is really laudable. The workshop was unusually blessed with serious participants who were really conversing. However, owing to shortage of time the workshop could not generate any substantial dialogue, yet what is achieved is deserves applauds.
The performance on the first day was quite wonderful. Seriously taken, the play helps one to resist the consents one is otherwise thrown into.
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10. Dr Ajay Sekher:
It was an open and democratic arena for intimate interaction and co-learning. It is important that we document and publish the papers at least. If shortage of funds prevent us from doing it in print we must do it in net.
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11. Laura Selvestri:
I arrived in Paris two days ago and I have already been taken by the frenetic rythms of this town. Moreover, it is really cold, what a change from the 35 °C of Kerala!
This notwithstanding, the experience of the workshop is still with me.
I agree with the proposal of a longer meeting and of a practical experience. What frequently happens is that, while talking, one forgets real experience, bodily experience, especially this might happens during intellectual work.
And yes, I think the people that were there, males and females, could be able to engage themselves in a courageous discussion that includes women's experiences, spiritualities and bodies. I know it might be difficult and may be painful, but it is a core issue for spirituality and, for the first time since I was in Kerala, during the workshop I had the impression of being among people that could find the sincerity, respect, self-questioning, and courage to face such issues that are often avoided.
So, thank you again for the invitation that generated such an important experience and occasion for learning.
I also thank all the participants to the workshop for their warm welcome that made me feel comfortable even though I was totally a new-comer.
Special thanks to the ladies that speak aloud. Hearing them was a lesson for me.
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12.Dr.Ishwar Dost:
It was a wonderful experience. Really such kind of frank, open, receptive and stimulating discussions are rare in now-a-days academic world, which is formal, bureaucratised, ruthless and career-driven. At the same time, this experience of thinking-together was different to obedient, conformist atmosphere of certain divinity-seeking or holy or didactic engagements. This experience suggests that the quest in the form of an honest and open dialogue has its own dimension of spirituality, which not only stimulates thought but also touches the inner core of being. I endorse the view of Dr. Parthsarthi that it may be a longer affair. I was much impressed with the high quality of informal (at the time of dinner, lunch and afterwards) discussions and the enthusiasm of senior and erudite persons to hear and respond patiently arguments, dissents of all participants.
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13. Dr. Giorgio De Martino:
...hello all: as I suggested during the workshop, there are - in my opinion - so many needs to rethink, share and expand a lot of ideas about "dissident spirituality". As possible I will write more about received suggestions and sharing concepts, at the moment I just can send you an article and a link http://bci.tugraz.at/leeb/ , telling a story connnected with the article you will receive. In october-november 2005 I was talking with a friend, who, now, is about 80 years old, Giovanni degli Antoni http://www.nova-multimedia.it/gda.html . Degli Antoni is considered the dean of the first generation of cybernetiks scientist, in Italy...2500 students have been with him for a Master and/or a PhD.
I told him I was preoccupied, reading the article by Robert Leeb and collegues I am sending you, as the consequences of those researches, could be too much similar to the "1984" orwellian style. I added, also, that it was quite curious to see that, when during the 60s and 70s the so-called "parapsychology" was presented as a quackery, thereafter, as the argument became good-for-business, suddendly a lot of unhortodox researches, became ok. Giovanni looked at me smiling and telling me "you are prehistoric!"... He told me not to be really preoccupied about the researches you can read on the article I am sending you attached, but more about the fact that the half organic/half artificial brain his students - in the laboratory of Crema, near Milan (Italy) - had some difficulties educating the unusual "object". He was, in the meantime, quite worried about the probably dark future of humans.
Read the article...!
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14.Sadique P.K:
thanks for having a such a serious academic debate on a different and often neglected(but genuine)issues from the modern secular normative discourses.[the absence of discussion on dissident streams in Islam tadition was conspicous] a debate on Islamic spiritual movements such as Sanussi movment,Khadiriyya groups and Shiites political spirituality ..etc.] could be taken up the future gatherings. from these streams we get diffrent meanings and explanations for the often misunderstood concepts such as Jihad,kafir and sharia..etc.for example when we go throgh the work of Sheikh Saindheen Maqdumes' Tuhfathul mujahidheen (written in Arabic to urge Muslims to support Samorins of Calicut) it use this terms in a very diffrent meaning .often these sufis and saints tried to go beyond the unitary experince of spirituality and tried to connect the mystic experinces with the earth and time.
--
Palash Biswas
Pl Read:
http://nandigramunited-banga.blogspot.com/
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