Mordechai Vanunu on Israel's nuclear blackmail
- interview with Hesham Tillawi
http://currentissue s.tv/VanunuTranscript.html
Below is the transcript of an eye-opening interview that took place between peace activist Mordechai Vanunu and talk show host Hesham Tillawi on the television program Current Issues.
TILLAWI. `Well, I do believe that we have Mordechai Vanunu with us…Mordechai, are you with us?
VANUNU. Yes.
TILLAWI. Good Morning, I know that it is 4 o'clock in the morning there in Jerusalem. Folks, Mordechai Vanunu has spent 18 years in an Israeli jail for telling Israeli nuclear secrets. He was lured to Rome by Israeli agents and kidnapped and then sent back to Israel where he spent 18 yrs in prison and 11 of those years in solitary confinement. That is true, Mordechai?
VANUNU. Yes, that is right.
TILLAWI Now, Mordechai, I have a question for you. What was it that you really felt that you must tell the world about, what was it about the Israeli nuclear program that you felt to yourself, `you know I cannot continue like this, I cannot remain silent on this, I have got to tell the world about it.' What was it?
VANUNU Well, the most important point is that it was the same situation that we have right now, namely that these people continue to lie and to cheat the world as well as their own citizens by denying the truth, by declaring that they do not have atomic weapons while at the same time I was working there helping to produce them. At that time there were more than 200 atomic weapons, in 1986, and it was at that time that they started to produce the most horrible of all weapons, the hydrogen bomb…all of this in secret, in lying and in cheating the world and all of its citizens. So I said to myself `It is impossible to keep these secrets. I must report about them and to try and stop it.'
TILLAWI Mordechai, there are a lot of nations that have nuclear weapons. What is it about Israel having them that makes you so nervous?
VANUNU Because Israel wants to use them, to cause genocide and holocaust on other innocent citizens. It has always been a part of Israel's secret policy. And also by having them, Israel will use them as a threat to avoid making peace with the Arab world as well as imposing her policies on those peoples. As long as she has them, she will continue on in her policies of not making peace, of occupation and of neglecting the Palestinian suffering caused by the refugee camps that have existed for more than 50 years.
TILLAWI One of the Israeli professors said a few months ago that 'we have the nuclear capability of hitting every major European city,' is that true to your knowledge?
VANUNU Yes, it is true. They can bombard any city all over the world, and not only those in Europe but also those in the United States, and by this threat what they are doing is to send a secret message to any leader and to any government that they have the ability to use them aggressively and to blackmail them, to blackmail Europe and the United States, every where, in every state around the world. It was Europe and the United States who helped them get this power, and now that Israel has it, she is coming back and saying to them 'We will not obey any orders that you give us. No international law, no international agreement, no UN resolutions,' and all because of these atomic weapons that they have. ...
TILLAWI ... What made Mordechai Vanunu betray his country and then change his religion?
VANUNU Yes, this is a very good question and very important. You are right, it is not usual to have a person come to these hard conclusions. As far as my conversion, it started at the very early age of 15 or 16. I was raised in the Jewish religion and in a Jewish family. Israel and Judaism were considered as one nation, one big family, one tribe. I began criticizing and rejecting Judaism over the point of view that these Jews are teaching injustice through their Judaism. In the same way that Jesus Christ also criticized Judaism 2,000 years ago, I was unwilling to accept what they teach, and later converted to the opposite of Judaism. The Jewish tribe teaches that there is only one Chosen people of God. They teach of their superiority, taking literally word-by-word the writings in the old bible. And I decided therefore that after 2,000 years these ideas were nonsense. There are 6 billion people around the world, and all of them are equal, all are part of the human race. There is no such thing as a super race. We should all respect and love each other, and that was the beginning of my rejecting Judaism and my accepting of Christianity, of following the teachings of Jesus Christ and of accepting humanity. I am not a religious man, I am not going to become a priest. I did all of this for my humanity and for my beliefs. So, I chose my own way and began criticizing the Jewish faith. Those who teach Judaism run the lives of those under them, telling them what they must do every hour of every day, issuing many orders about everything, from waking up in the morning to going to sleep, but at the same time they do not teach them to respect other human beings, to accept non-Jews and to believe that non-Jews are like them. They teach that only the Jews are the chosen people. So, this is Judaism, a collection of primitive traditions thousands of years old that have not changed. The world has changed in the last 2,000 years and the Jewish people need to accept and understand this change, and especially if they want a democratic country. You cannot have a state and run it as they did 2,000 years ago. They came to Palestine in the name of the Bible and in the name of their god and took this land that was promised to them thousands of years ago. In the name of this god, they took the land, expelled the people and gave them hard, cruel, barbaric lives for the last 60 years. This way of thinking, this faith cannot exist within this new age, and it was this that also led me to expose Israel's nuclear secrets.
TILLAWI Mordechai, you have been living amongst the Palestinians for a while now. What do you think, are they the terrorists that we have all been hearing about?
VANUNU I have been living amongst the Palestinians now for 15 months, but I have been following the Palestinian situation now since the 1980's. Now I am here living among them, watching them, meeting with them, eating with them, enjoying life with them and seeing how the Israelis have succeeded in portraying them all over the world as terrorists. But this is not true. They are very peaceful people and lovers of peace. ...
TILLAWI So, why are we after Iran then to open its doors to inspections, but no one is asking Israel to do the same? Why is that?VANUNU This is a very strange situation that has been developed and accepted by the Western states since the 1960's. It goes back about 40 years. My view is that Europe and America are and have been under a long-term agenda of blackmail by the Israelis. In the first case, the Israelis constantly bring up the Holocaust and what happened to the Jews during WWII, blaming the West for it and then using this as the justification for possessing nuclear weapons as a way of preventing this from ever happening again. ...(9) Mordechai Vanunu says Nazi Holocaust used as "propaganda" to blackmail the WestThe World Today (ABC Radio, Australia)Wednesday, 29 September , 2004Reporter: Jonathan Lucrafthttp://www.abc. net.au/worldtoda y/content/ 2004/s1209662. htmhttp://globalfire. tv/nj/04en/ holoindustry/ holopropaganda. htm
MORDECHAI VANUNU: Maybe the real fear is that my free spirit, my free belief to express my views in politics, in everything, not only nuclear secrets, I have many interesting views and I'm telling them without fear and expressing that to anyone in all the world, in all the media, and that is not good for Israel.They don't like it, and also, the Israel Government and state have teached all the world, especially the west, Europe, United States, Australia, Canada, they teach them to fear and now to be under blackmail by Israel propaganda of Holocaust and all this propaganda.
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Transcript: This is a transcript from The World Today. The program is broadcast around Australia at 12:10pm on ABC Local Radio.
http://www.abc. net.au/worldtoda y/content/ 2004/s1209662. htm Mordechai Vanunu speaks
The World Today - Wednesday, 29 September , 2004 12:25:06
Reporter: Jonathan Lucraft
ELEANOR HALL: Mordechai Vanunu made headlines around the world when he blew the whistle on Israel's secret nuclear weapons program in the mid-1980s. The Israeli nuclear technician was arrested soon after in a Mossad operation, was tried in secret, convicted of treason and spent 18 years in prison, 11 of them in solitary confinement. In April this year he was released from prison, but his freedom has remained restricted, with Israeli authorities forbidding him from speaking to foreigners. Despite this, Mr Vanunu this morning gave his first interview to an Australian media outlet, speaking to the community radio station, Radio Adelaide's Jonathan Lucraft.
MORDECHAI VANUNU: The restrictions are not working and unreasonable and not according to the human rights and the democratic system and they will finish them in six months – at least the restriction not to speak to foreigners and not to travel really inter-state.
JONATHAN LUCRAFT: Are you taking a chance by talking to us?
MORDECHAI VANUNU: I'm not taking a chance, I'm making a very good calculation and according to the human rights and freedom of speech that everyone as a human being should have and I'm exercising it and I believe the Israel Government and Israel organisations are realising that what they decided is not good. They will not do anything wrong with my speaking to you either.
JONATHAN LUCRAFT: When the restrictions are lifted, what will you do then?
MORDECHAI VANUNU: If they will let me go I would leave Israel immediately, I would like to see the world, to exercise my freedom. If they will not let me go, let me speak, then I will speak much more to the media and to the people around the world and here.
JONATHAN LUCRAFT: Now, 18 years in a Mossad prison, 11 of those years in solitary confinement. How did you fight the effect of those years on your mind?
MORDECHAI VANUNU: The effect was very hard and strong, but I was firm and strong from the beginning to protect my freedom, my free will, my humanity, that was my struggle from the beginning.
The power organisation of Israel gives what they can to fight me, to cause me some harm, damages in health, mind, and they succeed little bit, but I survived and I am now free, but it was very hard, a very difficult time and I wish no one would suffer what I suffered, and then when I speak to you and try to be human being like everyone.
JONATHAN LUCRAFT: Do you feel though that those years in solitary confinement had an effect on you?
MORDECHAI VANUNU: I think no. The only effect is maybe some part of my health has been damaged. We see in the future how my health will react and how my health will survive in the next future.
JONATHAN LUCRAFT: Now, you converted from Judaism to Christianity. Did this help, or did it make it harder for your captors?MORDECHAI VANUNU: My conversion to Christianity was in Sydney, Australia, in 1986, it was before this case. So when I find myself in prison I decided my Christianity is going to be my way to freedom, my boundary, my defence against Israel's power organisation, brainwash or psychologic warfare. So in some way, in many ways it helped me very much.
JONATHAN LUCRAFT: Do you believe that you're a traitor to Israel?
MORDECHAI VANUNU: Five million Jews are regarding me as a traitor, but six billion people around the world think me as a hero and a good man who bring the message to all the human beings that we should survive and prevent the use of nuclear weapons and to prevent the nuclear preparations and to prevent nuclear war in the future.
JONATHAN LUCRAFT: Now, any knowledge that you had of the Israeli nuclear weapons program is now, it's nearly 20 years old and it's well out of date. Why do you think the Israeli Government is still, apparently, frightened of you?
MORDECHAI VANUNU: Maybe the real fear is that my free spirit, my free belief to express my views in politics, in everything, not only nuclear secrets, I have many interesting views and I'm telling them without fear and expressing that to anyone in all the world, in all the media, and that is not good for Israel.
They don't like it, and also, the Israel Government and state have teached all the world, especially the west, Europe, United States, Australia, Canada, they teach them to fear and now to be under blackmail by Israel propaganda of Holocaust and all this propaganda.Now come a man and speaking from inside about their crimes, their mistakes, their stupid policy of nuclear weapons and all the world's watching all this, and that is their real concern.
ELEANOR HALL: Mordechai Vanunu speaking to Radio Adelaide's Jonathan Lucraft.
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Palash Biswas
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